Steve Martorano  
The Behavioral Corner is produced in partnership with Retreat Behavioral Health -- where healing happens.

The Behavioral Corner 
Hi, and welcome. I'm Steve Martorano, and this is the Behavioral Corner. You're invited to hang with us as we discuss how we live today, the choices we make, what we do, and how they affect our health and well-being. So you're on the corner, the Behavioral Corner. Please hang around for a while. 

Steve Martorano 
Hi, everybody, welcome again to Behavioral Corner, the podcast about everything. That's what I call it because, after all, everything affects our behavioral health. My name is Steve Martorano host and guide. We are now a couple of weeks, the second week into a brand new year. This will be our fifth year of doing the podcast and the Behavioral Corner -- made possible by our underwriting partners Retreat Behavioral Health, you'll hear more about them later. And so if you're just finding us welcome aboard. We handle as I said, a lot of topics that have to do with many things, not least of which is drug and alcohol disorders and the treatment of them and also the wider range of behavioral health and mental health issues. We're going to take a look at the mental health aspect today on the podcast, and we welcome to the Corner for the first time our guest on this fascinating topic. Laura Riordan is our guest. Laura is not a healthcare professional, she's quick to point that out. But she has been a long-time sufferer and someone who is managing her bipolar and depressive disorder. She's a mom, she has a brood of kids running around the house. She has a loving and healthy relationship that she lives in and nurtures. And she's a full-time working woman. So she's got her full life and is here to tell us about not so much the clinical aspect of bipolar disorder, which we spent a lot of time here talking about. But something that I've been interested in a little bit is their support groups, not unlike AA meetings for people suffering from something like bipolar disorder. Turns out there are and they are numerous and well thought of. Laura is associated with one national organization DBSA. That stands for depression, bipolar, and support alliances. As I said, they're a national organization. They've been around for 20...20...30 years at this point. She's affiliated with Delaware County, which is a suburban Philadelphia, chapter. We welcome her to the program. That's long-winded. I apologize. Laura, nice to meet you. Thanks for joining us. You were diagnosed with bipolar and depression disorder, probably about 20 years ago, if I remember what I read. I'm guessing that you found that you knew something was wrong and you suffered from certain symptoms, well before you were diagnosed, is that right?

Laura Riordan
Well, I should have known something was wrong, but it was just my life. So I didn't really realize but I had symptoms as early as probably one and two years old of depression. There was some trauma and things in my childhood as well as genetic predisposition on both sides of my family for bipolar and depression. So I never was diagnosed in any way. Senior year, I had some of high school, I had some stressors, trying to pick colleges. I was valedictorian, I had bags and bags of mail from all these different colleges that my mom was trying to help me sort through. I was having a tough time in a relationship at the time and did really well on my SATs. So that was part of the bags of college mail, and just trying to decide applying to all these different schools and what would be the best route to go to graduate with the least amount of loans. I was also attending college while attending high school there is a program with my local Catholic High School and the local colleges. So I got to go to Villanova. two classes a semester, senior year. So for 4 total classes, in addition to my high school classes. There was a lot going on. I was stressed but they kind of I saw a counselor that my mom knew just once or twice. I took like one or two days off of school just because it was overwhelming, but they call it just "stress" not you know, and it probably was pretty severe depression anxiety, but they never diagnosed that. So they almost didn't plan I didn't get diagnosed until later because I was valedictorian. I wasn't dealing with meds, I wasn't dealing with a diagnosis or the stigma of any of that. But looking back, I had severe depression, I would hide in closets to see if anybody would find me because I didn't think they cared. So maybe if I hid in a closet, I'd see how long I could wait there and hide and you know, very sad, very challenging childhood, a lot of bullying. Nobody really got me, you know, like, this isn't even bipolar. This was me, but like, "Hey, do you want to play Barbies?" And I was like, "Do you think there's life on other planets? What do you think happens after we die." And this was like, you know, four to eight years old, I just didn't really fit in at all.

Steve Martorano  
But then I think you said in your bio that around 2003 you were sort of diagnosed with this disorder. We've had plenty of clinicians and experts on to talk about bipolar, and how it's being treated in a number of different ways. We're not here to do that. We're here to talk about your support, and what you've learned in what you call a roller coaster ride, which really does. It's the perfect metaphor for what a bipolar experience is like tremendous highs and manic conditions, and they are always followed by a precipitous plunge into dark and dangerous depression. So it's a real roller coaster ride. That's what we're going to talk about, and the support you now provide helps people with, what you receive. But before we get started, what are the characteristics of bipolar depressive disorder?

Laura Riordan
Yep. And it was manic depressive. Even when I first got diagnosed, it was like manic depression slash bipolar and it switched to try and I guess get away from the stigma not that bipolar doesn't have stigma as well. But um, you know, when I first got diagnosed, I had a very serious, manic episode in college that was in that one story that I shared with you. And that was my first diagnosis, true diagnosis, even though I exhibited depression and hypomania throughout, again, childhood, you know, to study for a test, I would stay up all night and I made myself hypo manic, did great A's on everything, but I didn't know I was making myself hypomanic, I just thought I was a procrastinator, you know, but that hypomania energy, actually, I excelled extremely, in every class, from, you know, kindergarten through college. But bipolar one tends to be you've at least been hospitalized once for a severe mania. So not getting enough sleep, really rapid speech, rapid thoughts, it can start to get to a level of psychosis, for some people, some people get angry, I don't really tend to get angry, I tend to just get happier and happier. You make more and more connections. I don't know if you've ever seen Homeland, but they do a really good job with Carrie, who's a CIA agent describing how she can make these connections when she's manic that other people aren't seeing. And that can happen. It's not just crazy. It's also things that people are missing. So things start happening that are good, I can make connections with people and with things and memories and everything really, really quickly. But then it gets too far if I'm not sleeping enough. So bipolar one is at least one mania. And then generally always depressions that have gone along with that but very severe depressions but bipolar one characteristic, at least one mania generally hospitalized for it. Bipolar two is hypomania and then depressions that are cyclic. There's also bipolar on non-specified is another that's just kind of, they haven't quite determined exactly, but it seems to have the characteristics of the other bipolar one and two, and then rapid cycling, some type bipolar rapid cycling, some people can have hypomania and depression, and then back to hypomania, and depression all in a day or a few days. time period. So that's rapid cycling, as well. So there's kind of four categories that are out there right now. But, you know, it's really extreme highs, extreme lows, and then stability in between.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, the stability is what you guys focus on in the support groups. How to manage this, because we're talking about a lifelong condition. There is, as we speak, no cure for bipolar disorder. Let's talk about just briefly the manic episodes characteristic of bipolar one. These are, as you say, will lead to hospitalization if they're severe enough. They can lead to all of the things you said the rapid thinking the the speech patterns. Lack of impulse control, I guess, is stuff I've read. Risk taking. They can be a very dangerous time. When you are in that manic episode. Can you characterize how possible...is it possible for anybody to reach through that mania and say to you, "Laura, you're having an episode. Did anybody ever get through to you during a manic episode like that?

Laura Riordan
Absolutely. And hypomania as I've had countless, where it's the first two to three days, I really have to keep an eye on if I'm not sleeping well. I'm just really happy. I'm excited. I'm planning 10 different things. I'm answering 50 different emails and 100 texts on my phone and Chris is really supportive and understanding and starts to say, "Hey, you texted 50 People today like we got to rein it in a little bit and I saw you had like 27 Facebook notifications in an hour."

Steve Martorano 
So Chris is your husband?

Laura Riordan
My, yeah, my significant other.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, yeah. So it helps you have somebody around to go "Whoa," during that fight hypo episode, but when you're into a deep...

Laura Riordan
They keep me in check before the mania hits is the biggest thing. And my manias is a little bit different than many other people's. Every mania I've had has been incited by a medical condition. So my first one was after knee surgery, and another one was after a C-section. Another one was after another knee injury. One was after a med change that actually caused mania, which is really scary when the meds are supposed to be giving you to keep a mood stabilizer caused my one mania in 2004. The vaccine, I don't want to go too into vaccines of any sort, but the COVID vaccine and 2021 Cause the mania. So all of my manias that became out of control for me were things that were one was this very, very severe ankle injury, that when injury impacts my sleep and also causes adrenaline to heal, because every injury has also actually healed faster than doctors expected because I go into overdrive. So there's some people that have that. The only times I've had an uncontrollable mania that I wasn't able to keep the hypomania from growing into mania was these medical conditions that were out of my control. So it's because I've had some really major periods of stability with my coping strategies with ever without meds. But then if something major medically happens to me, I...

Steve Martorano 
You have to be careful. Yeah. Let me ask you about, well, how often were you hospitalized as a result of bipolar?

Laura Riordan
Eight times.

Steve Martorano 
Eight times over...over 20...almost...

Laura Riordan
Twenty-four years.

Steve Martorano 
 Over 24 years. How long were you typically hospitalized?

Laura Riordan
Most depression when people are in there, they're in four to five days and then they get booted. For manias. I've seen people get in for anywhere from five to seven days, sometimes a few weeks. Some situations I've heard are as extreme as you know, a year. They're just not getting out of there. But mine because they've been so severe, and they're trying to get meds to get me reined in. And I'm still generally manic when I leave that we're trying to at least, you know, curving back towards hypomania, and then crashing but usually anywhere from two to three weeks.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah. And so you know, that sounds like an ordeal. It sure is. And it sounds like a lot of time in and out of hospitals. It's fairly a common situation.

Laura Riordan
I'll make a note that many of those have been followed if people don't know and they're really beneficial and you can even use those preventative to inpatient. There are PHP programs, which is that partial hospitalization program, it's generally about 9 am to 3 pm, at least in this Philadelphia area, that you go every single day, you can even get a bus ride or a van ride there because they know people don't always have transportation. And then IOP is intensive outpatient, it's usually about four days a week for about three hours of the day, sometimes they have a day or even evening shifts if you're trying to work. And that can either be preventative care or post-hospital inpatient care, to help with the, you know, prevention of hospitalization, or the transition into regular life, again, post-hospitalization,

Steve Martorano 
It's important to let people know as difficult as this disorder is many mental health disorders are so a lot of help out there. And a lot of help is built around just what you described, the unique nature of this disorder, which has devastating effects on one's personal life and career. It's difficult to keep jobs under the circumstances. So it's good to know that there are levels of care that you can get. What you guys do at the Support Alliance, is seems to me, that I haven't seen one of the sessions yet, it seems to be not unlike what goes on at an AA meeting. And I mean that in the following way. They'll tell you, people, who are in AA, this is not a treatment. We're here to support one another. Tell us how that works for you. How do you support your fellow bipolar disorder, folks? Yep.

Laura Riordan
Yep. And we always let people know I'm one of the primary numbers. And our president and I'm the VP of the board. So we're the primary numbers when they reach out. So please let people know please know we are peers as well. We might be having a very hard day if we are not certified in any way. We are not, you know, we are not doctors, we are not nurses, we are not psychiatrists, we're not therapists. And if you are a therapist or a doctor who's a peer, you do not come to the door with that. We come to the door as a peer or a supporter of someone in your life who's suffering from Bipolar depression, you leave every degree at the door, you do not come in as a practitioner. So you only come in as a peer or a supporter of someone who's suffering. But we do let them know that just upfront Hey, we have the resources we have but we might be having a really tough day and this is purely volunteer and purely peer-to-peer stuff. ports. So please know that this is the purpose of the organization, we're glad to provide lists of resources and recommend calling you, your health care insurance provider to get ones that are covered by your insurance in the area. And we can say, pros and cons, but we don't put out lists of who we would recommend for psychiatrists. But purely peer support. And just a quick review, a lot of them are similar, but how did ours go, we did a lot of Zoom during COVID, obviously, so that helps people. I didn't do as much of the Zoom because I had a job that I was on like 12 zooms a day, and then trying to jump on at 7:30 on the Zoom. Again, I just, it wasn't I was too much for me, but I went back to in-person, which I'm very excited about. And before COVID, we would get up to 35 to 40 people on a Monday night for support in the Delaware County area. Seven to 9 pm we go the first hour, everybody checks in and does a quick touch base. You know, if you're new, you can wait till the end. But I'm usually your first name, not the full name, diagnosis, or multiple diagnoses if you have them, which many people do. Generally, a quick update of your last week or two since you haven't been there. I often joke, "Hey, you don't have to tell us it's been six months since your last confession." Like we don't care how long it's been. But that's always my little joke. And we do start with all of our guidelines. So we have these very specific guidelines for what to follow. We don't mention medication names because there can be a lot of negative connotations but it might be exactly the medicine that helps the person next to you even though it was awful for you. They will say mood stabilizer or an atypical antipsychotic or those categories but not the brand.

Steve Martorano
Well, that's a that's a great point, we should pause and make that very clear to people. I've seen and talked to bipolar people, and they will trade, when it's personal, they'll go, "Did they give you this?" And you're right. Administering those drugs, which as I understand it are crucial in helping someone maintain stability when they have Bipolar. Is not an exact science. Your physician, your psychiatrist is really trying to find what combination of drugs will work in conjunction with one another so that you get some benefit from them. So it's good to see that you guys aren't in there going, here's a list of stuff you shouldn't use. Or here's the stuff we recommend, because it's not that simple.

Laura Riordan
We also have guest speakers. So we have one gentleman who's been in the pharmaceutical, psychiatric medication industry space that comes in and just does some training on dopamine, norepinephrine, you know, all the neurotransmitters and just what kind of those different categories of medicines, how they approach them. One keynote that psychiatrists let me know because I would always tell people bipolar, it is a chemical imbalance. It's not proven to be a chemical imbalance as of yet. They know that some of the medicines affect those chemicals like dopamine and norepinephrine and those things, but, some people are actually leaning towards it being more of an inflammation-based issue. So omega threes can be helpful because they help with inflammation and reduce inflammation. They don't know. So people keep mentioning mood, you know, chemical imbalance, multiple doctors, and if you read up about it Psychology Today, everything else, it's a myth or an unproven hypothesis, they still do not know. And they still have not been able to prove the genetic factors. Even I did a test, a research project at UPenn, with myself and some other family members that have Bipolar, but they still haven't been able to find what the genetic component is. They know there has to be because it runs in families rapidly.

Steve Martorano
I haven't found the gene. Yeah, I know that whilst you know, this is the kind of stuff that someone who is battling bipolar disorder and the corresponding depression needs to hear because they keep taking drugs, the doctors are well-intended, but they don't seem to be working. And then hopelessness begins to set in, where you begin to think, "Well, why even bother to try to maintain stability? It's only going to happen again." That's not necessarily true. You have that long, and you are right now, in a long period of stability, right?

Laura Riordan
And I, myself have actually been on over 30 medicines and various combinations over the last 24 years.

Steve Martorano
Yeah. You just have to find what you know what combination of things works and I know you guys, in your support group, talk about just that. There is a medical component. There are things you can with, you know, your tools that you learn. And there's a support you get from family and groups like the Alliance. Let's talk a bit about coping...let's talk about triggers...

Laura Riordan
Real quick, if I can just for diving, and I said seven to eight we usually do that check-in, and then people who are new we'll...we'll talk. Then that second hour what we really do is dive in. So if somebody's having a severe crisis, we dive in. We provide support. As facilitators, we're not meant to talk the whole time. We're meant to facilitate the conversation so that we and all the additional peers, if they have support for that person be able to provide their input and share the space. We don't want anybody overtaking the space. And we'll, we'll touch base with somebody, we're not taking the whole hour on someone. If there's a crisis, sometimes we'll have somebody step out with them to say, "Hey," you know, if they're really upset, if they're angry, if they're anything, hey, we're gonna have a few people that are available to step out with that person to the lobby, and really give them some one on one attention. And then also, if nobody specific is having a crisis, at that moment, we'll hear about some of the threads that go through other people I'm having a hard time at work with, with a boss and peers, understanding what I'm going through, I'm having a hard time with friendships or a significant other, I have a really hard time getting out of bed. So we hear different things that are challenges that the time we'll start to bring up. What does everybody use every day? What helps you do this? What helps you get through this? How do you approach it, we just have gotten so many great ideas from each other over the years. Again, I started in 2003. So almost 21 years I've been going and have learned so much about bipolar, depression, anxiety, and about myself through those years. And I do have so many triggers we can talk about, and I do, I did pull up that list of some of my strategies, as well. So whatever you want to talk about...

Steve Martorano 
You know, I want to...I want to hear I want to hear strategies for sure. But in order to...in order to apply these strategies, you got to be aware of what...the triggers, right? So, for your triggers, you were pretty I mean, you're pretty obviously it has to do with your medical condition when your body...

Laura Riordan
That doesn't allow me to sleep and also can drive adrenaline to heal. Those tend to be really uncontrollable mania. Hypomania can just be a couple of good things happening in a row at work or with family. And a couple of good things led to me just being not able to sleep and really happy and everything started clicking. And normal days, it's kind of like everybody's normal day, you know, when I'm stable, it's, Hey, I have to get myself out of bed, I got to have a good day, I'm gonna think positive, I'm gonna have some tea or coffee, gonna look at the sunrise, whatever. But on those days, I just wake up good with no reason. I'm just I feel great today, or I feel awful today, those are the days that really tend to have even more negative repercussions or more positive than things happening.

Steve Martorano
Very difficult...very difficult situation to manage, but you have. Many do. Tell me about your strategies.

Laura Riordan
Yeah, let me pull...sorry if I'm reading a bit, I just wanted to pull them up. So um, the first one I have is just accepting that your brain is not functioning normally now. And that there really may not be a cure. Accepting that you have Bipolar, you are not. We all hate the word "normal" and put normal in quotes. There's no normal on a washing machine, whatever. But you have a disorder. Your brain is not functioning as it should - whether that's normal or not, it's not functioning properly, it's not healthy. And whether again, that'd be due to inflammation, chemical imbalance, or genetics, a lot of people see the the pathways that are formed in the brain from abuse or trauma, whether it's childhood or college. So, you know, trauma has also had a lot to do with my bipolar symptoms. But just knowing there's hope for fulfillment, again, there's hope for purpose in life again. So accepting, but remembering to hold on to the hope that you can have a fulfilled life even while you're dealing with these symptoms and trying to work towards that stability. So that's number one. Professional care. So one is a good therapist, somebody that you connect with, and that might take a few times. I had a friend who has bipolar that she's only seen two therapists her whole life in the last 20 years. And I'm like, "Wow, that's amazing." Because that's not typical. I had gone through probably over 15 therapists before I found someone that I've seen since 2009. He's been retired for five years but still talks to me.

Steve Martorano 
Some people spend more time choosing someone to do their hair than they do their doctors. I guess we're somehow we're intimidated by the notion that we're going to judge this medical professional but we have to right, and if that means shopping around...

Laura Riordan 
You have to have both for your therapist and your doctor you have to have that rapport that you feel like you trust them and that they trust you and you have to be honest with them that's part of this professional care honesty don't just say you're feeling fine when you're not. Don't hide the symptoms and or the side effects of medication if you're having them please you know, try to be aware. I've had blurry vision. I've had tremors in my hands. I've had paralyzing anxiety I've had I went blind for a week after my first manic episode. And they don't know if it was some of the medicine or just the mania exhaustion. They still don't know. But you have to be honest with what you're feeling and if somebody's responding that...my first psychiatrist I had to leave school for a severe manic. I went blind. That's when I crashed. I was extremely...for a whole week. I was extremely depressed from there on out. I was sleeping 20 hours a day I was on a medication, I won't necessarily mention the name of the medication. But I gained 40 pounds in a month from the medication. And I just I was sleeping 20 hours a day because like being in my dreams was much better than knowing I had to leave school and everyone thought I was crazy. And all these other things.

Steve Martorano 
Finding the right...finding the right...finding the right counselors that's absolutely sure. Give me some of the other strategies.

Laura Riordan
Yep. And still with professional care, I just still have looped in a lot of us have pain like that even some of the medications for depression. We'll talk about pain, physical pain that happens. So a lot of us have emotional pain, and trauma anxiety that tie into the different knots and muscles in our body. So as part of professional care, I've seen a muscular, skeletal specialist or MFR, myofascial release therapist, and some of my biggest breakthroughs in therapy have happened during a physical therapy session with those muscle or myofascial release workers. So I always try to let people know if they're dealing with physical pain, there can be a lot of muscle memory, and massage therapists will even talk about that when they get into certain knots, someone will start crying and saying, Oh, that reminds me of this trauma that affected me. So as part of professional care, I really do like to mention that piece of physical pain. And when you're dealing with that, making sure...

Steve Martorano  
That's a great tip. Yeah, that's a great tip. We're speaking with Laura Riordan, who is suffering from bipolar disorder. She's the facilitator and the Vice President of the Delaware County Pennsylvania chapter of the DBSA. That's the depression, bipolar Support Alliance. And he's taking us through what you can gain in addition to whatever you're doing with your meds and with your therapy, to manage this disease, what you can gain in terms of coping skills and knowledge by support groups. We were running out of a little bit of time here, I don't want to keep you much longer. If I just wanted you...

Laura Riordan
Can I do the remaining few? I can do them fast.

Steve Martorano 
Sure. Go ahead. I do want you to mention your writing too, before we go, but...

Laura Riordan
Thank you so much. Yes. Third is the support network. So again, some of these coping strategies are many of them, I have learned through my support group. So it's a little bit of a, you know, a nut within the knot, you know, is that finding a support group, but there's DBSA, Nami, hearing voices as one for some people with depression or bipolar, or technically scheduled effective so they hear more voices. And schizophrenia then also ties in so hearing voices is another support group that is more for people who have auditory or even visual hallucinations. But the DBSA group is excellent. There are online support groups. There's a Facebook group with somebody who's in the mental health community. He's a speaker He's awesome, Dave Howard is his name, but he does the positive depression and bipolar, happy place. So he keeps as positive as he can. But you talk about what's going on in your life and then people try to instead of venting, and just bitching about bipolar, it's what are some positive strategies. So those that support network in any way and some of my friends for the last 20 years have been through DBSA that we text every day. Educating yourself so you can be self-aware, like you just mentioned of your triggers, what coping strategies do I have to use right now? There are some great resources out there Kay Jamison's books. Julie Fast is excellent. She has loved someone with bipolar Get It Done When You're depressed, managing bipolar, so she has some really, really great books. OC87 is a group that I wrote for, but that's a local...OC87 Recovery Diaries has personal essays and stories about recovering. And another friend has, The Better Because Collective, it's called. So it's a nonprofit, and I wrote for them as well. But it's what have we gained? And what have we learned from the suffering? And why are we better because of the challenges that have been placed in our lives? But those are some good ways to educate yourself to read other people's stories and just really think about your own triggers. Next, your overall health and making self-care a priority. So you know, nutritious foods, fruits, vegetables, proteins, Whole Foods, not crap. So that's a big thing. Exercise, making sure you're moving, walking, yoga kickboxing, and getting out in the woods. 20 minutes a day can be huge. So even if you're dealing with pain, what's something little that you can do for that? You spend time in nature and reconnect with some sense of wonder and awe of what's around you, and then let go of any guilt or resentment because a lot of us have guilt when we have bipolar one. You do these things that you don't even remember what you did. So there are often blackouts with bipolar one because you've slept so little. So it's, I have a friend you know, dealing right now with many, many, many things that she did and hurt people that she never would have hurt while in a manic episode while also trying to get treatment in another state, I won't even talk about it, but they didn't have a bed for her. So she was in multiple times trying to get a bed released again. And again, trying to get help and not getting the help, like while actively trying to get help. They didn't have it additional, you know, things occurred. So it's really tough. And then evaluating your current relationships as part of that health and self-care to hear in toxic relationships or don't have your boundary set up with family or friends that can impact you, you have to have healthy relationships around you. And then the next one is outside of self-care and overall health. Sleep hygiene. So a lot of people with bipolar don't want to deal with that I know how important it is, you got to put your phone down, you got to turn the TV off, you got to disconnect. Maybe you meditate before you go to sleep or you listen to a calming song. You have to have the lights turned out, you shouldn't have the TV on all night. There are different things like melatonin magnesium oil, and magnesium bath. White Noise. So there are a lot of ways around sleep hygiene. I could talk about that just for an hour. Yes,

Steve Martorano 
Yes, sleep is very critical in managing this, isn't it?

Laura Riordan
Yes, And then one other piece is I think this is seven. Practice meditation and mindfulness, how important it is to be in the moment. Whether you're manic, depressed, hypomanic, or stable, being in the moment and just remembering...remembering that it's not you don't have to worry about tomorrow, or five months from now, or five years from now, or what happened two years ago, when you were manic or depressed, or it's being in the moment right now. Knowing you're alive, you're not in Hell, you're physically here, sitting here doing whatever you're trying to do, no matter if you feel up or down or stable, and just kind of being in that moment. So I have some great meditations. Mindfulness practices I do I have some, I like guided meditations a lot, and my mind tends to float when it's quiet meditation, but I've done it sometimes. And then some of the head-to-toe for like bedtime, that goes through relaxing head to toe each muscle group. So your head, your nose, your cheeks, your neck, those can be really good. And then the final one is kind of what we were talking about, like, why would I ever do this, the ups and downs are too much. It's finding yourself again, and your purpose. And it's that last step because there's so much work to even feel like you can get to that place. But remembering what you love to do, you know, when you're depressed, you feel like you don't want to do anything. And you're so frustrated that you'll never get that back again, never get that joy back again. Or that interest in painting or horseback riding or yoga or whatever the case may be that you'll never even want to do any of those things again. But there is you know, there is hope for doing that again. So those are some of the eight steps, their own steps, but those are my core, eight things that have some subcategories under them. But those are the things I really know I have to focus on for my health instability.

Steve Martorano
Well, we thank you so much for your time. And obviously, there's a lot to know about this. And managing it is critical because as we said at the beginning, this is something that's like...it was you sit here now is going to be a lifelong condition. So it's not about curing bipolar depression, it's about managing your life. Laura Riordan is living proof that it can be done. She's doing it now. And if you want more information about anything you've heard from Laura, you know, you can visit the site. We'll have a link to the site. Laura, you've just been published, what's the name of the writing group, it's a's dedicated to these topics.

Laura Riordan 
Let's see OC87 Recovery Diaries, it's based in Philadelphia, I actually got to attend a women's writer's retreat connected with them that was absolutely wonderful that we really delved into some writing around mental health and, and recovery as well as the struggles and traumas and triggers and history. So there were some really amazing topics we focused on during that retreat. But it's just OC87 Recovery Diaries, you can Google that. I also have my own blog that tamingthebipolarbeast.com.

Steve Martorano 
Yeah, that's a nice-looking site. I was looking at it earlier. Yeah, we're gonna have links to all of these things. So people can...people can get more information...

Laura Riordan
Then there's the one other main one I've written as an article was my friends that better because collective.org So that one I wrote an article about Kintsugi, which is the Japanese art of repairing a piece of pottery or something that's broken within the cracks with gold or silver to make it more beautiful in the brokenness, making it more beautiful again. So I took that as a metaphor, the word kept coming up. And I said that, you know, Rebecca, I need to write about this. And she said I think it's an awesome topic. I want to publish that. And I got to work with a great group of editors from her site, to put that story together. So it's a metaphor for the trauma and the abuse and the challenges that we face. So, wellness is cancer that comes up with diabetes, you know, mental health issues. We all have something a death of a parent, you know, or a sibling. So we all have that. But what is the...how do we make it more beautiful? With all the challenges we face, I use the metaphor Kintsugi to tie that together. So I was proud of that piece.

Steve Martorano  
Well, good for you. I think it's great. Laura Riordan Again, it's DBSA. That's depression, bipolar support Alliance Air national group. So if you're listening to this some, obviously outside of our area, there's probably a chapter near you. Check it out.

Laura Riordan 
There is a zip code search on the national website. And locally we're dbsadelco.org.

Steve Martorano  
Thank you...thank you, Laura. Continued success. I know you started a new job recently. Good luck there. And we'll have you back sometime soon, huh?

Laura Riordan 
Thank you so much. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure.

Steve Martorano  
Thank you guys. Don't forget to like us, and follow us. Subscribe to the Behavioral Corner. We'll catch you next time. Bye bye. Thank

Laura Riordan
Thank you so much.

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